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2023-Changelog-Interviews-Transcripts

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• The Debian project was announced 30 years ago by Ian Murdock
• Jonathan Carter, the current Debian project lead, was 11 years old at the time and was using Windows 3.1 and MS DOS 6
• He first tried Linux in 1999 with a disappointing experience, but later discovered Red Hat 7.2 and became interested in free software
• He volunteered for the Shuttleworth Foundation, which aimed to bring Linux into schools, and eventually started his career in free software and open source
• He became involved with Debian, contributing as a package maintainer and developer, and eventually ran for and won the position of Debian project lead
• Debian's structure and organization are unique in that it is a community-driven project with technical decisions made by users, not salespeople or companies
• The project's stability, reliability, and simplicity are key aspects of its appeal, and Jonathan Carter is amazed that it works despite its complexity.
• Debian's potential paths to failure and how to avoid them
• Commercialization and sustainability
• Debian's unique business model, relying on volunteers and donations
• Initiatives to increase diversity and inclusion in Debian, such as outreach programs and micro-grants
• Formalization of Debian's organization, including its status as an association of volunteers and its use of fiscal sponsors (SPI, Debian France, Debian Switzerland)
• Debian's fiscal sponsor is the Software in the Public Interest (SPI)
• Need a fiscal sponsor due to global organization status and volunteer-run nature
• SPI handles accounting, legal issues, and other administrative tasks
• Debian has verbal agreements with trusted organizations (TOs) but lacks formal contracts
• This creates tension and potential conflicts, such as disagreements over administration fees
• Formalizing relationships with TOs is a goal to prevent future problems
• Debian's volunteer-run nature and democratic aspects are key to its success and longevity
• Release names, such as Bookworm and Forky, are inspired by Toy Story characters
• Debian was used for rendering in Toy Story and was previously hosted on a Pixar domain.
• The history of Debian is intertwined with Apple's history through Pixar.
• Free software and the definition of free as in freedom (DFSG) were discussed.
• Debian's policy on including non-free firmware was changed to include it by default on installation media.
• The change was made to allow Debian to be installed on physical hardware, but compromises the distro's 100% free status.
• Debian is working on RISC-V Architecture to provide completely free hardware options.
• The distro's installer now detects and prompts users to install non-free firmware for certain hardware.
• What is a Linux distribution and how is Debian one
• Debian's goal to package and integrate tens of thousands of free software pieces
• Debian's wide range of use cases, from supercomputers to cell phones, including the Librem 5 phone
• Mobian, a team within Debian creating a mobile version of Debian
• The need for open source choice in mobile devices, and the limitations of iOS and Android
• The potential of Debian on phones, including the Pine Project's Pine Phone
• Debian's universality and licensing freedoms
• Companies building products on top of Debian without needing permission or licensing agreements
• Examples of companies using Debian, including Proxmox and potential future Apple support
• The growth and ubiquity of Linux in various devices and industries
• Microsoft's shift from opposing Linux to embracing and profiting from it
• Apple's increasing openness to Linux, including demoing Debian on Apple hardware
• Apple's M1 and later chips can boot any operating system, including Linux
• Apple is not blocking Linux on its hardware
• The community would like to see Apple officially support Linux on its hardware
• Ubuntu is discussed as a Linux distribution, with its strengths and weaknesses
• The conversation touches on the use of Snap packages in Ubuntu and the potential for them to replace traditional Debian packages
• Debian is compared favorably to Ubuntu in terms of its release timing and ability to keep software up-to-date
• Arch Linux is discussed as a distribution that is too unstable for certain use cases due to its lack of stable releases
• Debates between Debian and other Linux distributions, specifically Arch and Enterprise Linux
• Discussion of the enterprise Linux market and the void left by CentOS
• Jonathan Carter's assertion that Debian is the only true enterprise Linux
• Critique of Red Hat Enterprise Linux's maintenance and upgrade process
• Comparison of Debian's LTS project to Red Hat's support options
• Reasons why users may not be choosing Debian as a replacement for CentOS
• Jonathan Carter's admission that Debian's marketing is not effective
• Discussion of the potential for Debian to take advantage of the void left by CentOS
• CentOS and Rocky Linux as alternatives to Red Hat Linux
• Enterprise software certification and compatibility issues with free variants
• cPanel and other software vendors starting to support Ubuntu and Debian
• Stability and reliability of Debian compared to Red Hat and CentOS
• Availability of professional support for Debian from companies like Freexian
• Growth and global reach of Debian compared to Red Hat and Oracle
• Limitations and tenure of the Debian Project Leader (DPL) role
• Technical improvements and projects for the Debian installer and downloads process
• Debian's use in university maths and science classes
• Jonathan Carter's work on Debian as a day job and as DPL
• Debian's diversity and outreach efforts, including the Debian Outreach Project
• Formalizing Debian's organizational structure and trusted organizations
• Need for a framework to connect with new trusted organizations worldwide
• Request for support from the community in the form of legal expertise
• Discussion of the human connection and community within Debian
• How Debian's 1,000 volunteers collaborate and communicate, including in-person events and various communication platforms.
• Establishing a more formal framework for local Debian groups
• Supporting local groups with financial aid, swag, and resources
• Promoting Debian meetups and events, potentially with online presence and activities
• Utilizing Hack Club as a model for community engagement and organization
• Leveraging local instances of Hack Club for Debian meetups and activities
Jerod Santo: So on August 16th 1993, 30 years ago to the day, Ian Murdock first announced the Debian project to the world. And today, we are joined by the current Debian project lead, Jonathan Carter. Thanks for coming on the show, Jonathan.

Jonathan Carter: Thank you for having me.

Jerod Santo: 30 years is a long time. That's like three quarters of my life. I'm wondering how old you are, Jonathan. How much of your life is that?

Jonathan Carter: That's about three quarters of my life. I was 11 years old when Debian was released, so I'm 41 years old now.

Jerod Santo: Okay.

Jonathan Carter: Back then I did not know Debian existed even. I was using Windows 3.1, and MS DOS 6 back then, on my little 386. It was very exciting times. At the library once I found a book on an x386, and started reading through that. I was thoroughly confused, because I had no idea what this was talking about....

Jerod Santo: Well, here you are today, and the current project lead. If you go to the website, or the Wikipedia list of Debian project leaders, I counted them up, I think you might be the 18th. And so a long line of people that have taken on this role that you currently hold. Maybe tell us about what it means to be...

Jonathan Carter: Well, that's a long story... But we have time, and we have an hour as far as I know. I'll try not to fill the whole hour with this... My first time that I've tried Linux was in 1999. I installed a Red Hat Linux that I got from a CD. I can't remember where it was; it was in a magazine, or something ...

Then I happened to come across Red Hat 7.2, and it was just a completely different experience than my first experience with Red Hat Linux version 6. Suddenly, my modem worked, my display worked... All of these things that was possible to get working on my computer just suddenly worked, and I thought, "Wow, if free soft...

\[08:33\] And at that point, I messaged the local Linux user group about this, and I got in touch with the Shuttleworth Foundation. That's a local nonprofit founded by Mark Shuttleworth. They wanted to start a project to get Linux into schools; not specifically to get kids leveled up in technical skills, but mostly jus...

We had a big volunteer group where we went to schools on Saturdays and we installed a lab from scratch in one day. And we ended up installing 200 of these computer labs. So we would take a bunch of all donated computers from companies and install an \[unintelligible 00:09:19.04\] for the school.

So that was very exciting, and I ended up doing contract work for Shuttleworth Foundation, I ended up working there full-time, and that's how my career in free software and open source started. And from there I became an Ubuntu contributor, and a very long and winding tale. I ended up working in Canada for about three ...

Jerod Santo: So from Ubuntu to Debian project lead... Close that loop for us, in terms of - this is like a thing that you're elected for? Certainly you got involved with Debian and grew into this somehow, right?

End of preview. Expand in Data Studio

2023 Changelog Interviews Transcripts

Complete transcripts from the 2023 episodes of the Changelog Interviews podcast.

Generated from this GitHub repository.

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